OH BOY! (Scott, you know... )
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 00:19, David Neeley <dbneeley@gmail.
> I am on many email lists, and have been for several decades now--and
> quite a few newsgroups before that.
>
> This is one of the very few lists in which so many people complain
> about "top posting."
This is one of the few lists I am on too in which many, many people
complain about top posting. But that's because almost every other
technical list I am on is populated by people who do not top post.
Like you, I've been on and a part of literally hundreds of mailing
lists, forums and usenet groups over the years, and of all the things
I've ever seen, top posting discussions are only second to vi vs.
emacs, which is even more contentious than Linux vs. Windows...
This list is a LOT more ... accepting... of top posting than the other
technical lists I am on. That's primarily because this IS a newbies
oriented list. In any case, while accepted to a pretty high degree,
proper posting etiquette is encouraged by the senior members, the
knowledgeable members and the moderators. The newbies who get away
with it mostly here, will most certainly encounter a lot more
unfriendly attitude on other lists within the world (e.g.
Linux@yahoogroups, lkml, etc).
> The key, however, is "untrimmed" and not at all whether the message is
> placed on top or on the bottom of the relevant material.
"A Primary" key, is trimming, though. In addition to proper
threading, trimming is essential. A good example is a local list I am
on (like the one you used to run). It's a digest-only mailing list
that is 100% moderated (though the moderator/owner only redirects
non-local posts to forums instead of the list). There are quite a few
occasions where someone will reply to one post in the digest, and end
up quoting the entire digest... so a reply to a digest with 50 posts
in it, produces a new digest with 50 old, quoted posts, plus however
many new ones. I agree with you completely, trimming is essential.
> Personally, when someone trims the excess out, I actually prefer
> adding the new message on top. That way, if I am familiar with the
> thread, I needn't pay any attention to the "stuff" that occasioned the
> comment to begin with.
You are familiar with the thread, but what about the 100 - 1000+ other
members who may not be? Or the person who searches, finds a post that
has 15 quoted replies in the thread, and has to scroll around through
possibly 100s of lines of text to find the beginning of the
conversation?
Reading backwards, from the bottom up, is not an efficient way to read
a long thread, hence the now decades old idea of bottom posting and
trimming.
Also, many of us on lists like this, (this one and Linux@ especially)
are professionals who don't have time to scroll up and down hunting
and searching and trying to decide what the new post is, and what the
historical data is. I can only REALLY speak for myself, but I am sure
the same thing applies to people like Robert, Joan, Scott, Godwin, and
the others who make up the core of this list in replying to and
helping the new users out. I simply do not have the time to hunt
through improperly formatted e-mail, and thus generally won't help out
on those unless I'm just bored, or not working.
The rule exists for a reason, the previous explanation being one of
the big ones.
> Of course, some folks seem to get a severe case of "moderator-itis"
The folks, round here, that seem to get "moderator-itis" are the same
ones that take their personal time, for free, to help out with
answers, research, and discussion. They've earned the right to their
moderator-itis.
But elsewhere, I know what you mean... one particular forum I frequent
calls it "back seat moderating"
> a free forum host some time back. (In some ways, in fact, a decent
> forum is superior to a mail list like this one, as it makes it much
> simpler for newcomers to find out what has been said about any given
> topic previously.)
Most mailing lists have searchable archives, just as web forums.
Personally, I loathe forums and now-a-days tend to not be so active on
them. I'm only REALLY active on 3 or 4. Mailing lists are better for
me because all those various lists come directly to me. If every
mailing list I was on was a separate forum, I would have to visit well
over 100 forum websites a day to keep up with the posts.
> Somehow, I survived the top- and bottom-posting issue as a non-event,
> and I suggest that a few of you folks just get over it. Express your
> preferences, fine (as this one did), but don't be too upset if others
> have different views and different practices.
Lots of people have differences of opinions. Some people in the US
have the opinion that they don't actually have to pay taxes. Those
people usually end up in jail. Some people have the opinion tht txt
spk LOLWTFROFLBBQ U read lyk dis an wot is perfectly acceptable as a
way to communicate to a group of professionals. Those people end up
ignored, or worse.
Consideration is given to non-native english speakers here and
elsewhere, as this is a global community, but certain rules do apply.
Cheers,
Jeff, who is quickly becoming a curmudgeon as Scott can attest to...
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