Meh... I should probably continue...
On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:50, Paul <pfrederick1@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Lies and distortions in Roy's post include:
>
> "Debian is not for everybody."
> Does Debian check IPs and say, no you cannot download it we don't like you?
Really... are you THAT literal? I would like to think you're more
intelligent than that and can understand the idea behind an allusion
like that than to take it at literal face value.
> "It is not newbie friendly"
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/GettingStarted
> I'm sure some sick and twisted Debian user put that page up as a joke right? Well Roy is sure!
That's assuming Debian is already installed.
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstall
That page does NOT look terribly newbie friendly to me... In fact,
finding ACTUAL step-by-step installation instructions using the wiki
you provided is not quite a simple as it would seem. The obvious
starting place "How to install Debian" does not actually tell you how
to install. It just tells you about installation media and that you
can use something called debootstrap to install from inside another
OS. Yeah, someone new to Linux is going to get that pretty easily.
And I say that ironically as someone who has taught Intro Linux at the
college level as well as within corporate environments.
> "the community does not embrace change nor new users."
> http://www.osnews.com/story/24378/Debian_6_0_Released
>
> "They want to keep things the way they always were and even turn back the clock."
> See above.
Without getting into arguments about technical decisions, I present
only the first paragraph of your OSN story (Capitalization emphasis is
mine):
Oh glorious day! After TWO YEARS of development, one of the prime
Linux distributions has pushed out a new release - Debian 6.0
'Squeeze' has been released. The most fascinating aspect fo this new
release is that it includes Debian/kFreeBSD s a technology preview,
which fascinates me to no end. Of course, there's a whole lot more,
including a brand new website for the project - the FIRST MAJOR
REDESIGN IN 13 YEARS.
That alone speaks of a reluctance to change... or at least change
quickly. Especially given arguably the most popular desktop distro in
the world, Debian based Ubuntu on a 6 month release schedule, and Red
Hat on something like an 8 month schedule, roughly, with SuSE at about
12 months roughly. 2 years is forever in the OS world.
> They do not like it that Ubuntu has taken their work and made it accessible to others.
> http://ianmurdock.com/debian/ubuntu-vs-debian-reprise/
I'll give you this one. Debian and Ubuntu have become a lot closer
and are a lot friendlier than they used to be. Historically, Roy is
correct, and the Debian community still harbors some resentment even
today, though both sides are actively working to fix that issue.
> "Debian is what it is and it isn't going to change anytime soon"
> News flash Roy it just did!
> http://www.osnews.com/story/24378/Debian_6_0_Released
Again, it just did after two years. (or 13 for the website)
> I (Roy) know the community well
> No you don't. You think you know. My post proves over and over just how little you actually do know. I think that you are some sort of a Microsoft employed paid shill from the FUD astroturfing
> you did. Except it was so inept.
All you've proven is that you're taking this way too personally, and
are just so quick to start throwing baseless ad hominem attacks
against someone you only know from a few postings on the internet.
> "they are on a crusade and to them all outsiders are regarded as infidels."
> This makes so little sense I could find no web link to debunk it. It sounds like xenophobic inferiority complex nonsense to me though. Must be a common Canadian condition.
If you know the community as well as you do, then you would know that
the Debian community has traditionally been rather insular especially
WRT other distros and communities out there. This is changing over
time as the Debian community grows, but traditionally, while Roy's
comment is a bit inflammatory, it's not incorrect. And no different
from the GNU community's actions and perception within the greater
Linux community either. Let's not get this wrong. Debian has a very
rich and thriving community that is growing by leaps and bounds... but
the old guard ARE rather insular and view outsiders perhaps not as
infidel but as gai-jin.
> "it is not made to work out of the box"
> Funny it works here.
> root@spot:~# cat /etc/debian_version
> 5.0.8
Yeah, I'll give you this one too... No OS is made to fail out of the
box. Points here.
> My smoking new Squeeze box is upstairs.
> http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/index.php?k=profile&u=anon-22625-10502-30022
>
> That's right, we bad!
>
> "work like Ubuntu with advanced features."
> http://www.debianadmin.com/
>
> "It is for advanced users who like a basic setup."
> I do not see how any user would not like the option of choosing a basic initial configuration. None of my setups remain basic for very long I can assure you. Do any of your computers CNC
> control? One of my Debian systems does!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbeyNNBZ68
And this just proves that you are NOT the typical new user. The
typical new user today is a kid, or someone's parent. It's not
someone capable of creating a CNC control system. Yes there ARE
rocket scientists who become new users, but the vast majority is NOT
that adept. When judging the ability of a group, you have to judge by
the weakest members of that group, not the strongest. Consider the
old proverb "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link".
My mom is terribly intelligent. High IQ, Mensa member, nationally
recognized Cardiac Critical Care RN, 30 years of experience in
Intensive and Cardiac Critical Care, and she still confuses the terms
"Install" and "Download". She has tried Fedora, Red Hat, and SuSE and
could not install any of them, nor use them, without extensive
assistance, and eventually giving up and going back to Windows. My
Mom DID, however, download and install Ubuntu on her own, set up
Wireless, install Chrome, and have a fully running Linux system and
has not asked for tech support ONE TIME.
Ubuntu is Debian for new users. That's not an insult to Debian. In
fact, it should be considered as a plus to Debian as it will
eventually grow the greater Debian community even more as SOME of
those new Linux users who are introduced to the Linux world via Ubuntu
(arguably the most popular desktop Linux distro) will migrate into
Debian at some point as their knowledge and curiosity grow.
> "It will likely never work as well"
> A likely story if I ever heard one. Systems only work as well as they are administered.
Another point to you... I agree.
> "anything proprietary is bad"
> Such a crude statement as to be meaningless. I will say this, I have installed commercial proprietary software in Debian using Debian's package management tools quite nicely thank you very
> much. If Roy had any skill what so ever he could too, even in KUbuntu!
I'm not going to touch this one. I don't know how easy it is to
install proprietary drivers in Debian. I know that in Ubuntu it's as
simple as enabling the restricted repo (by running a simple GUI tool)
and picking up the driver you need. If Debian makes installing
proprietary drivers for things like video and network cards this
simple, then certainly kudos to Debian.
> I designed all of the electronics for my CNC experiment in Debian using Eagle.
>
> http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ <-- Not Free!
>
> http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1819/ppbb4sch.png
> http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5841/tb6560ahqa.png
And that's really really cool... but again, I'd dare say that a fair
number of Linux users and a large majority of NEW Linux users couldn't
have done that. But your project is really awesome!
> And using my Nvidia binary kernel driver too. Which I installed using Debian's synaptic package manager. But Roy says it isn't so!
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#non-freedrivers
However, getting back to the Newbie argument... kernel module
installation via CLI is NOT a newbie level task. It's more along the
lines of ... somewhat familiar with Linux.
So, tell me this... if I am a brand new Linux user and my FIRST EVER
linux distro is going to be Debian, but I have an nVidia GT260M card
that runs very poorly, if at all with nouveau, how do I get my system
installed with the proprietary driver? Can I install the wl driver
during install via the debian installer? Easily? In an obvious way
that anyone with fingers and a mouse can accomplish? Or does it rely
on me doing something seemingly arcane via CLI that most new users are
going to be utterly unfamiliar with?
> "if you ask for help doing something that they regard as verboten the (sic) you will get a lecture at best and a tongue lashing at worst."
> It is all in how you ask.
Point. And it's the same for most Linux communities... (except for
the Ubuntu community, which as far as I have seen go out of their way
to make people feel welcome regardless of how they phrase a question).
> Now Roy I'd think that even a canuk would have the sense enough not to chop down the trunk of a tree when they were standing out on one of it's limbs but I guess I was wrong there.
And now you're insulting Canadians in general? Really? You imply
here that somehow, Americans are more intelligent than Canadians but
even a dumb Canadian should now better than to undercut his own
foundation? I know some pretty damn smart Canadians and I laugh at
your ridiculous generalization.
> Insist on the truth, insist on the best, insist on Debian! And don't listen to people from Canada named Roy ... At least when it comes to Debian.
And here we have it. You again simply give credence to the arugment
that the Debian community has a superiority complex and cast yourself
as a zealot. You have basically destroyed any credibility you had
with this statement despite the fact that some of your arguments are
correct.
I think you should consider re-writing your post in a manner that
actually would help your case, rather than undermine it using
inflammatory remarks and flinging insults at a nation and a single
man.
Cheers,
Jeff
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